Recruiting Top Talent with Chris Tuff

The following transcription was from the Bulletproof Youtube channel. Here is the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbMvmqQZcQk

Peter Boulden
0:00:00
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Bulletproof Dental Practice Podcast.

Peter Boulden
0:00:08
I'm Peter Bolden. And I'm Craig Spodak. Dentistry can sometimes feel lonely. Having over 45 years of combined experience and the chops to run eight successful practices, our mission is simple. Pay it forward and share what we've learned.

Peter Boulden
0:00:23
That's why we developed the Bulletproof Pathway, to help you navigate your way to ultimate success in dentistry.

Peter Boulden
0:00:28
And don't forget to join our community's conversation over at Bulletproof.Dental. Now, let's get to it.

Peter Boulden
0:00:34
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Bulletproof Dental Practice Podcast.

Peter Boulden
0:00:38
It's Chris and Pete today and we've got a topic that is something very popular in all over the dental conversations especially in our masterminds on our bulletproof dental the mighty network and it seems like every dentist everywhere is is concerned about recruiting and finding talent and getting the right people at the right place and there's no one better suited on the planet to talk about this than whisperer himself.

Chris Tuff
0:01:12
Oh gosh, I don't know about that.

Chris Tuff
0:01:14
Well, we have to flex that, man.

Peter Boulden
0:01:15
You whisper and you know the things and you're gonna give us some tips and tricks and all the tactics to get to maximize that and beat out all the other people that are vying for the same jobs in dentistry, meaning the same positions. And one thing that I don't think dentists

Chris Tuff
0:01:29
give themselves enough credit, like that's just a headline. You guys don't, you all don't give yourselves enough credit where credit is due, but I tell Pete all the time and anyone that will listen that's in dentistry that I use dentistry as one of my favorite examples of how some of this stuff is playing out in small businesses. And I have a speech next week with five of the biggest corporations in the world with their C-suite. And we're talking about a lot of these things, but it's interesting because as we've been able to talk to more dentists, both within the mastermind, as well as just talking to you and you and Craig, Pete, it's been amazing to just see how much of the stuff that we read about is playing out within your four walls, right? Like this is all stuff. And that's where I'm gonna actually ask the first question, which is my favorite thing to hear from Pete is his vision. So, you know, given kind of the current environment, where do you feel like current environment, meaning some of the things that are being, that are happening with subsidies, et cetera, like how do you feel like that's going to impact dentistry in the next kind of coming months? What, what do you see happening over the next little bit through

Peter Boulden
0:02:50
the end of the year here? Yeah, so I think anything in society when people are incentivized to stay home and not work, it obviously affects the working class, right? And we are all working class, whether it's hygienist or front desk or dentist or hygienist, I mean the working, it affects them. So, you know, when there's subsidies that allow us to stay home and not work, it affects it in a negative way. So that's one. The other thing I want to point out, Chris, is that this is not unique to dentistry. And I think it's important to tell you because we get in our own little silos about like, well, gosh, I must be the only dentist, right? Or maybe it's just the dental industry. This is across the board in the United States. And I know I'm stating the obvious to people, but it is really important because it's not just our pain that we're having. And I think it's a temporary blip. Like as some of these COVID subsidies get removed, right? So like, you know, there's been free rent for who knows how long there's been free, there's been delayed on payments of debt, especially student loans, there's been unemployment that's just been just dragged on. And of course, you know, when there's kind of quote unquote free money floating out there, it makes people say, well, hmm, I can stay at home and make $10 or I can go to work and make $11. I think I'll stay at home. Sure. You know, I'm obviously giving fictitious examples. So, Chris, I don't know if I answered, you went right to a vision, which always scares me.

Chris Tuff
0:04:07
No, but I mean, just predictions.

Chris Tuff
0:04:08
I mean, things are happening so quickly.

Peter Boulden
0:04:09
So my prediction is that, my prediction is that the worst is over, is my prediction, for now. I don't know what's gonna happen. I think some of it is so dependent on what the current administration does, right? From a state, city, and then obviously a federal level. I think it's so much is dependent on that because I think this whole problem was caused from a lot of that. And obviously for good reason, like there's some people who really were in need because of COVID, like, so it's a COVID thing. I just don't wanna bring up the C word. But I think as these things are getting pulled out, like for instance, I just read last week that some of the unemployment benefits federally were just pulled back, right? The moratorium on rents was just pulled back.

Peter Boulden
0:04:45
So as this happens,

Peter Boulden
0:04:46
there's gonna be more of a rush back to the market. And so this is kind of what this pod is going to be about. Like if you've been going through a drought of having high quality people come to you and now you're questioning everything about the way you hire, about your website, your culture, even your job descriptions on the board. Like, oh man, maybe it all sucks. Everyone's been dealing with the same pain. And I feel like staying the test of time and being firm, especially this stuff, some of what we're going to talk about, I feel like the cream will always rise to the top. And so implementing stuff and being intentional about some of these tactics and doing things will put you to the top of the market. And after that, like it's something my mom said, Chris, that I always tell her, she told me as a little boy, I don't know if that's bringing up some mom-isms, but it's helped because I stress about things that sometimes I can't control. And she's like, look, just do your best and then screw the rest. And she would tell me this as a young child and I still use that phrase. Mom, if you're listening, a little shout out there. Because like all you can do is your best. And then after that, it's out of your hands. Like it's in the government's hands, it's in whatever religion, all the things. It's out of your hands. So just set yourself up for success and wait and wait and keep drilling into the things that we're gonna talk about is my advice from a vision standpoint.

Chris Tuff
0:05:54
And I think, were you gonna follow up?

Peter Boulden
0:05:56
I think it's frustrating, especially for the people who listen to this pod is they're entrepreneurial, they're growth-minded, the people that come to the summit. It's like you've gotten exposed to a lot of them, Chris. And without people, you are stagnating, right? Without the right people, without quality people, because people will move your vision forward. Yes, you are the creator of it, if you're the entrepreneur or entrepreneur or dentist, but ultimately you have to get people to align with your vision and row the boat. So if you're not getting thoroughbreds and top talent and people that can really help you move. And it's frustrating because you're stuck in stagnation,

Chris Tuff
0:06:30
in my opinion.

Peter Boulden
0:06:31
And growth, growing and scaling in multiple locations is all predicated on getting like awesome people. And so I think a lot of us have been in the frustration of like, gosh, I can't really grow right now because I can't find the talent.

Chris Tuff
0:06:42
Sure. One of my favorite quotes is from a friend of mine who owns a bunch of restaurants, who everyone also recognizes that restaurants were highly impacted over the last couple of years, but his name is Robbie Kuechler. And he told me a story, and we were just catching up, and he was telling me a story about how he once had to close down one of his restaurants for four days because there was a water leak. And I was like, well, Robbie, what'd you do there? He goes, well, I paid, I figured out the average, each one of our employees gets paid, and I paid them all what their daily wage would have been. I was like, that's very unusual for a restaurant your size. And you have 900 employees, like that's incredible. He goes, no, Chris, I just do the right thing. And I tell everyone, just do the right thing. And I think that's what so many of us forget as dentists is just follow your instinct, follow your gut, do the right thing and double down on your people through more genuine connection. And as you know, Pete, that is my platform, right? That is what I talk a lot about in our mastermind with some of our amazing dentists, because it can have such a huge impact on not only your current culture and who's there, but also your ability to attract new talent. And so we're gonna talk about some of those things now. And so I just redone a lot of these speeches to accommodate all the headlines out there. And all the headlines are saying, you know, the great quit is happening or the great resignation. I think it's funny because then I was talking to, it was actually one of the heads of, is the chief people officer for a fortune 50 company and he brought that up and he was like, oh what's gonna happen in the next coming while like when this great quit is over? I was like, listen dude, I hate to break it to you. This is a generational thing, right? With millennials and Gen Zers, you are always going to see a much higher turnover that's not going away. So the best thing for those listening that you can do is let those people leave. Don't throw money at them. We were talking on our mastermind. I say, I've got a philosophy I operate off of, which is I do not negotiate with terrorists. And so what happens is out of the gate, when someone gets an offer from another practice, you lay it down and you say, listen, as you know, we don't match offers here. Good luck with that. And once you do it once, it sets a precedent that you don't negotiate with terrorists and you don't have all of these younger workers that are trying to quote unquote, climb their way up from getting offers elsewhere.

Peter Boulden
0:09:16
So-

Peter Boulden
0:09:16
Yeah, from preying on vulnerability, right? Knowing that they, yeah.

Chris Tuff
0:09:19
Exactly, to let your people leave.

Peter Boulden
0:09:21
So you feel in your research, as you speak to people, you're saying, you know, I contended, my opinion was that we're getting out of it. And you're saying, look, the great quit is here to stay because it's a generational mantra almost.

Chris Tuff
0:09:33
And a lot of times when they are quitting, it's not because of the money or the benefits, it's because they fail to feel a genuine connection

Peter Boulden
0:09:42
or culture with their job. Chris, my question is, I'm gonna ask you, so if everyone's quitting, where are they going? Like, is no one just deciding to work anymore? I don't, this is where it breaks down in my mentality.

Peter Boulden
0:09:54
Like, I always had to work.

Chris Tuff
0:09:56
For the first time ever, for the first time ever, we have two generations in the workforce that will quit their job without another job, that will move in with mom and dad into their basement for however long and create whatever, the next new big idea in the basement of their parents without having anything else in place. And that's both with millennials and Gen Zers. And that is what people are up against. And it's also where you saw this big power shift kind of happen pretty quickly in the last handful of months, I'd say what, like probably nine to 12 months of the upper hand kind of going from the employer to the upper hand, then going to the employee. And I guess my headline there, Pete, is that if you just do the right thing and you double down on connection, you're going to end up doing not only fine, you will, you'll end up crushing the competition.

Peter Boulden
0:10:51
Give an example of connection, right? So that you say, yeah, give me an example of some, where you've seen that someone who's been a good leader has been a good connector as well.

Chris Tuff
0:10:59
So a lot of this reliance that we have, I say we, Gen Zers and millennials have for the kind of constant promotion or the constant raise is usually because that's the only way that they're getting any form of praise. So you're reliant on creating new positions, right, for a promotion, quote unquote, or getting that little pay bump because they're not getting that kind of rewards and recognition in other places. And really what that comes down to is it is under this kind of realm of connection. And one of the tactics that I like to talk about is just the art of the flyby. And the art of the flyby, I like calling out Tish, who's in our mastermind, and Tish, who has a practice up in Boston. I explained the importance of on a Monday, right? Go by and talk to all of your associates, talk to all of your hygiene crew, and at just some point have a touch point. And hopefully, if you have enough of a, I guess it's confidence to follow those people on social media. You can go fly by their desk and say, Meg, let's just say it's a junior hygienist on your team. Meg, that cat you adopted is so cute. Like, tell me more about that. And how was the rest of your weekend? Meg's gonna be like, oh my gosh, he actually cares about me. He's actually taking a vested interest in me. And I talked about this concept with Tish and Tish actually took it to the next level because sometimes he found that it was hard to work his way around the office on a Monday or a Tuesday. And so what he ended up doing was he moved the punch out clock or check-in kind of spot within their practice right next to his desk. And so on Monday in the mornings and in the afternoons, everyone had to go right next to his desk. He'd be like, Dr. Bolden, what's going on? Like, tell me about your weekend. Like, what's been happening? And I think, you know, that is one of my favorite tactics, right? Asking people how they are, how they're doing, what's going on, taking a vested interest in their life is one of the first and biggest steps towards creating more of a genuine connection within your practice. And now, let me also make one thing clear. Not every, this doesn't come natural to all dentists or practice owners. So that's okay, right? You might find that you are kind of heads down doctor that just wants to crank through cases and you don't have time for this stuff. Just make sure that there is someone in a senior enough position that, and that's where I like to refer.

Peter Boulden
0:13:32
That's, I love that you just pointed that out, Chris. Is that because the whole time you're saying that, I'm like, you know, that just, to me, I've always been such a go, go, go. And it's harder for me to sit and connect, just being introverted, right? I don't strive for that, but I forget that some people do. And so when you're saying that, I'm saying, gosh, man, I'm not a good leader, because I don't sit and touch and talk and ask about their weekend, because like, this is not the way I do. But as long as there is someone in place that they respect, and really like my, meaning my team, my leadership and my docs do do that, right? Because they are leading, you know, micro teams in different locations. So it is good that it is happening. So I love that you said that because sometimes we start getting real introspective, like, holy shit, I'm not doing that, or I am doing that. So I love that you said, it doesn't always have to be you. I mean, maybe it's probably the most effective if it is like Tish's case, but if it's not, just make sure it's happening in your ecosystem.

Chris Tuff
0:14:24
Exactly, and once again, now, I mean, what we're talking about there is that's just taking care of turnover. And what happens is culture follows connection, right? Like a good culture and some of these other tactics that I don't think we'll get into today about like rewards and recognition, ADS bucks, some of these things like that, that all builds towards this foundation that people do not want to leave, but also that makes it more attractive as you're going and you're talking to candidates about what differentiates you.

Peter Boulden
0:14:52
Have you ever heard of the book by Matthew Kelly called Dream Manager? I have. Yeah, you know, it was a pretty fascinating read. I got really into it back in, and this is because I knew that I was not a good conversationalist and check-in, but I knew I was better at like goals, right? And so I was like, you know, if I could just learn like the goals of some of my teams. So the Dream Manager was something they did a study that basically talked about turnover and this CEO basically dug in. And instead of getting like conversational, like he took it to a deeper level, like what is your dreams in life? And what resonated with me, Chris, and why I implemented it back in the day, was that what you think your dreams are, right? My dreams maybe are bigger dreams than kind of the average bear. But like some of them, like get a new car or take my mom on a vacation or go on a vacation or something, right? These were the dreams. And what we forget is the power sometimes we bestow to be able to help with that, right? Like you as a connector could probably make two phone calls and get everyone's dreams kind of accomplished or, you know, or financially. But it was really cool and it felt, so I'm all about giving people ideas. I think it's a good read if you are a manager of a company or you run your own practice, so to speak. I think it's a cool read. Anyway, I wanted to throw that in.

Chris Tuff
0:16:01
One of the other examples was flying first class and that person, like the next week was away on business and the boss ended up just going and upgrading them to first class

Peter Boulden
0:16:11
and they came back, they're like, oh my God. Yeah, and I get, it's like I always tell my team, you know, like if I don't know something, I can't help. Right? Like you gotta bring, you know, you gotta bring it into the consciousness of like, hey, this is your dream, let's throw it out there. Maybe, hey, maybe buying a house, maybe a stretch right now because, you know, but, but sometimes moving a lever, what seems like a big lever for that person is a tiny little move for you because of the position you're in. And so I didn't, I thought it was, I thought it was a cool book. Well, so, and I mean, then that really addresses more of some of the, the retention stuff. So talk to me, Pete, talk to me about, especially in recruiting younger associates. What do you feel like listeners out there? Cause that's one thing we're hearing time and time again is the struggle and trying to find top associates. So literally Chris, yesterday, was it yesterday or two days ago? Wednesday, I got in the car at two o'clock in the afternoon and drove three hours to go sit and have coffee with a potential associate. That's probably not going to graduate for another 10 months out of a GPR program. But it's a lot of planting seeds, right? So sometimes we make the mistake of you go, quote unquote, shopping when you need something, right? And by then, you're delayed. By the time you need it, it's like, you're like, oh my gosh, I really have to have this now. But I think recruiting associates is a curation process. It's over time. You have to kind of have coffee and then check in with techs from time to time, how's school going, or how's the residency going, or how's your job going, or whatever. And it's just kind of curating that relationship, rather, versus, here's my ad, here's my practice, come in. So we have been good as a group doing that situation, and a lot of it's been predicated on the fact that we have good GPR, a lot of them are associate professors and all that thing, but like, did I wanna get in the car and drive three hours? Absolutely not. Yes, there were three hours there, three hours back. So, you know, I went home at 1030 the other night. But guess what? I was really happy that I did, because he was an awesome guy. And like, I could totally see him working with us. Yes, 10 months from now. But like, and I wish it was now, but like, it's not. But that 10 months will go pretty quickly. So, I don't know if that's a pretty-

Chris Tuff
0:18:19
Course trip.

Peter Boulden
0:18:20
Yeah, course trip.

Peter Boulden
0:18:21
I think it's huge.

Peter Boulden
0:18:21
But it doesn't serve, like, right? We live in this economy of now, and I always lead with that in summits, is like, we live in this Amazon, like oh, get food in an hour, get a car in 10 minutes, get all the things, so when we want it, we're almost indoctrinated to want things very quickly. So by the time we want, by the time it's like we need an associate, let's post an ad. And then all of a sudden it's not performing well, you're like what the hell, there's no associates out there. Right, there's no employees out there. Right. And then you start questioning everything, like gosh, is my practice good, is my, what's wrong with my social media? You know, all the things that you think you start getting very insecure. Like, why does someone not want me? Kind of thing. Why does someone not want to work here? I'm having a hard time finding them. Sure. So, but I also think given that what I just said, Chris, I also think there's ways to augment, even if that is your strategy of just like post and try and get something, I think there's some strategies that we can recommend with that as well right now to help elevate yourself from the sea of everyone else looking for stuff.

Peter Boulden
0:19:18
Hey everyone, newsflash, save this date. Our 2022 summit will be taking place on June 2nd through 5th in Nash, Vegas, Tennessee. Sign up to receive summit updates at BulletproofSummit.com or stay connected with all things Bulletproof by joining our network at Bulletproof.Dental.

Chris Tuff
0:19:38
So, I mean, one thing I'm hearing from you is the importance of courtship. You got to treat it like courtship. Get out of the practice, find some neutral ground, go meet him for coffee, and then what? And then how does a practice or a doctor who's recruiting differentiate themselves from the

Peter Boulden
0:20:01
rest of the crew? Well, okay. So in that scenario, I would keep checking in with school. Like, Hey, let me see some of your cases. Like just have a conversation with the doc. And it's really easy to do for us to be like, Hey, let me have school gone or how's the GPR implants. Like send me some of your cases. Like that's an easy, like become friends and colleagues. Right. Because they are in a GPR scenario. They are already graduated dental school. They're just going through their residency. So that's an easier curation. And it comes very seamless for us, I think. A lot of times you'll say, well, I don't have the access to school. I hear dentists saying, well, I don't have access to that. I don't have access to those guys or gals. And so that's one of those things. See if you can go lecture to dental school, right? I'm sure there's someone somewhere that wants to hear what you have to say, potentially. Join study clubs and reach out from a mentor standpoint. Those are good ways. Maybe an associate professor, maybe you don't have time for that. And if that's not the case, then like maybe, you know, make it known that like you will allow people, dentists or prospective dentists or dental students to come in and observe and shadow. We get so many requests from dentists, to dental students even, who want to come and just see how things go, right? So be very open to those kinds of things. Especially coming off of visioneering, right? So how are you taking your vision and incorporating it into this courtship process? What are you, what are you telling them

Chris Tuff
0:21:21
in terms of their own role?

Chris Tuff
0:21:23
Like, take it from that.

Peter Boulden
0:21:23
Yeah, so I am a fan, as everyone knows, listen to the pod, I'm a fan of, I'm not a fan of just associateships. Like, don't just come in and, you know, it's a job. Because no one, like Craig says, I think it's a great analogy, like no one washes a rental car. But if they're on their way to knowing that they're going to rent that car potentially, but then eventually they're going to own part of that car, it's a different dialogue. It's a different mentality and it's an ownership mentality. So I am a fan. I would rather have, I lead all my conversations with, this is an associateship leading to partnership. And I don't hold the, Oh my gosh, I got to hold this equity real tight because I know that the right people on the right bus will grow that enterprise. So that pie, the pie just gets bigger. Yes, I get diluted, but the pie gets bigger and everyone wins. So I think it's a, Chris, I think it's a mentality shift. I think you gotta just kind of say like, okay, yes, I will only have, I'll go from 100% to 80%, but guess what? My company will be 120% bigger than it is today. So I effectively didn't, net, net, I didn't get diluted. So I lead all of my conversations where I'm going with this, Chris, is when someone says, is there a partnership opportunity? Hell yes, there is. Hell yes. Right? Because thoroughbreds and top talent want to have a seat at the table, right? They want to be in a position of influence. They want to be in a position of ask my opinion. They want to be in all these things and they should be because guess what? We don't have it all figured out. I honestly, without my partners, I would have been a shitty leader. I got to say, because I'm very myopic in one area. I'm good in like, I have a couple of superpowers. I'm really good, but they fill in my insufficiencies. Right?

Chris Tuff
0:22:59
And I think that's an important part that you just brought up there is not every opportunity or level, right? Let's just say we're not recruiting for associates and we're just talking about recruiting. I think courtship is so important.

Peter Boulden
0:23:11
I don't know if the practice owner

Chris Tuff
0:23:12
needs to be the person doing it, but someone needs to be doing it. I hear oftentimes from small businesses that, Chris, I get these young millennials and Gen Zers, and they think that they're gonna be owners overnight. Like, what's that all about? I was like, well, what that's all about is how they were raised. And I hate to say that, but that is. So what they need to see is they need to see what a path to whatever that ultimate goal is, what that looks like. And there might be seven positions between that position they're interviewing with and that ultimate goal. But when they see that, they see progression. They see that they're able to see the overarching context and be like, oh, wow, like there truly is upward quote unquote trajectory for me here.

Peter Boulden
0:24:00
And I know, Chris, we're talking about associates. I kind of went down that path. But you know, and that really isn't that's some of the pain point for dentistry right now. But it's, you know, it's a big hygienist thing right now. It's a big assistant thing. And so I think there's also ways in which you crowdsource your need, meaning you tell the team, hey, y'all, we, and everyone will know whether you tell them or not, hey, y'all, we need another hygienist. Do you know of anyone who potentially could be unhappy where they are or they live somewhere in another town that you couldn't. And not to start like getting into this poaching scenario, because that never feels good from an industry perspective when you go and you kind of recruit your team to go try and poach from other offices. But look, I always say if someone's ready to leave, they were probably going to leave anyway. So it's a very touchy thing, right? Because that gets you a bad reputation. Meaning if you're the guy in town who becomes known as the person who starts poaching other employees from other practices, like that's just not cool. But let it be known that you're kind of always hiring and you're always looking for good talent. And if your team can kind of reach out on your behalf and saying, hey, I know you're happy now, but if you're not, let us know, or maybe it's down the way. But kind of like having your team go out and meet other people, like who do I need to know in this town? Right, go and meet this, like Brittany, that story of Brittany, you know, bulletproof at Spodek's office. You know, it was like, who do I need to, who do I need, who's the hygienist I need to meet in this town? And maybe that was for collaboration, but sometimes that leads to finding top talent. So give your team an incentive to do so sometimes without poaching and I will leave it there, but like we incentivize people to look for top talent. If they're top talent, my practice, we incentivize them to look for it. Here's a $500,000, $500 bonus for a successful hire. Give them a reward for using their currency and their energy on finding talent for the company.

Chris Tuff
0:25:47
Yeah, and you brought up something else, which is not getting desperate in those situations, but setting the bar and setting the standard out of the gates, I think is super important. And what I tell everyone, doesn't matter what it is that I'm working with, I say, listen, we take only A team. We have, there's no JV here, and it is up to all of us to uphold that, right? Both from a recruitment, as well as when I'm talking to a candidate, because what those start thinking is like, oh wow, I'm an A, you know, I'm a top talent, I'm A, right? Like, let me prove it.

Peter Boulden
0:26:20
Well, look, if they truly think they're B, they're gonna weed themselves out. And I promise you, if they think they're B,

Peter Boulden
0:26:25
they're a C or a D.

Chris Tuff
0:26:27
Right.

Peter Boulden
0:26:27
Right.

Peter Boulden
0:26:29
So it is a good, you may be light on your applicants, but it's a good thing to weed out people who are just applying everywhere. So Chris, I want to go into some kind of tactical stuff because I think a lot is, I think the description of your jobs is very important. Right? Would you be compelled to respond to that offer when you read it. Or did you cut and paste it from someone's manual that you got on the internet? So be very, be fun with it. Be, had some humor. Make sure it reflects the culture that people, when they dig in and start looking, what's

Peter Boulden
0:27:03
this practice?

Peter Boulden
0:27:04
And they look at your social media and they look at your website. It's like, yeah, it's fun. And they're treating them right. And there's genuine smiles coming from the team members. Make sure it's authentically your voice as opposed to, hey, do you have a job description that I can use? How many times have I heard that? Countless, countless. I'm like, sure I do, but like, it's our voice, but okay, here it is. The other thing I would say, Chris, is I know we talk very fondly about the power of video from an advertising and a marketing standpoint in generating new patients, but I also think this is one of those places where you really want to almost create a, come work, why come work with us video where you're almost creating a two-minute video where it's all the things I just said, the genuine smiles and the fun and it's just B-roll, it's like here's why you come work with us, right? It's we have the best dentistry and a clean environment and we do fun trips and we go to happy hours and you know we treat people this way and we do social, you know all the things and right like it's really your highlight reel of your practice. And that, I think, if you set that down, and so we have it on a landing page that we drive all of the applicants to, which is the, so it's a landing page that has that, it has a comparison of benefits, it shows you all the health and the medical and the, I mean, the medical and the bonuses and all the benefits, as opposed to saying like hour per hour. And so I make the distinction to say, hey, a job is not an apples to apples comparison, meaning, oh, they're offering me $41 an hour or $30 an hour. Yes, but over here, there's bonus and there's health and there's 401k, so it's just a page to kind of highlight that. And then that last is just kind of going over the jobs that are available and then how to apply, right? But to your point, the verbiage is very clear about, it's A, players only, B, players, please do not apply.

Chris Tuff
0:28:51
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, especially in that first meeting with a candidate, you've got to be able to articulate what it is that differentiates your top tier employees versus everyone else. I say, and I do it every single time, I say it's three things. And you don't need one out of the two things. You don't need two out of the three things. You need all three. And it's always be willing to get your hands dirty, always put the practice in front of yourself and your own ego and have a can-do attitude. Instead of seeing obstacles, see opportunities. If you can do all three of those things, you will become an owner of this practice. And that might not be yours, but figure out what that is. And then start shouting it from the rooftops. And then in turn, as you go to reward and recognize people, go and revisit those same three things time and time again. And that is where you start raising that bar. But then also how you can come across in an interview and uphold something that you is worthy to uphold.

Peter Boulden
0:29:50
And also kind of like just how we know our patients, like why they chose us because we can read the reviews and saying like, I had the best experience for X, Y, and Z. Ask some of your most recent hires that you wish you could have more of, like what was it that made you pick us versus the office down the street? And then double down on that. If they give you something tangible, then amplify that. Like you said, from the rooftops, amplify the hell out of that. Oh, you know, you guys were popular on social media, you know, or something, or you guys, you know, I love the look of the offices. Like that becomes your cheat code. You know, I don't know why I use video games analogy, but that becomes your cheat code for like doing ads and really amplify that. Maybe that's your special sauce, but you know, success leaves clues. And so look for those clues and ask people. I asked someone we hired the other day, I just met her and I was kind of asked the same question, like why us? And it was a good answer. And I was like, Hmm, all right. And that helps honestly, Chris, even with a verbiage going back to like the copy and paste verbiage of the, of the ad that actually really helps there. Right. Because then you can modify the verbiage based on what the superpowers may be, not what you think the superpowers are, but from your most recent hires.

Chris Tuff
0:30:55
Sure. I love it. So, I mean, and this is all fairly reactive in nature, right? You have an open position. I've heard you say time and time again, the importance of having a pipeline of talent and almost like having a batting box that you can dip into.

Peter Boulden
0:31:12
Talk a little bit about that.

Peter Boulden
0:31:13
Chris, I want to make the disclaimer though. All these things I've talked about, it is no magic bullet, meaning I am in the same pain and I have been recently that everyone else is in, right? So it's not like I have sitting here saying I have all the answers. Like everyone's going through this. Craig is going through this, I'm going through this, the industry is going through this. So I want to make sure to make the disclaimer that like we are throwing stuff up and are they working gangbusters? Like that web planning page? It works good, but in the absence of not having it, maybe it, maybe it, you know, who knows? And so until you do these multi-pronged approaches, like create the video and create the landing page and create this customized verbiage, you know, that's what I'm saying is that you got to just keep becoming the cream that's at the top because eventually the workforce is coming back, hopefully, and Chris, I know you say no, but.

Chris Tuff
0:31:58
No, I think we got to get used to high turnover. That's it. Like the numbers will be more plentiful, I don't see it slowing down. And we talked about when that starts to hit your practice, allow people to go with grace. I would say don't negotiate with terrorists. And then when they come back in six months, if they were a good employee, let them- That happens a lot, I have to say.

Peter Boulden
0:32:20
Quality, and I asked that in the mastermind the other night, like how many people have had someone quit recently and come right back and like a lot of people raised their hand and kind of started giggling because they know that like people get lured away by the hourly and then they get in this other shitty environment that's an over promise and then the other practice under delivers and then they're like, oh my gosh, I jumped ship and jumped from like an A practice to a B practice or a C practice and like, what the hell did I just do? For $1.50 an hour, I just moved everything?

Peter Boulden
0:32:49
What am I doing?

Peter Boulden
0:32:49
Which is why that allowing people to leave

Chris Tuff
0:32:51
is even that much more important.

Peter Boulden
0:32:52
Yes, but Chris, you know, I will push on that, is that, yes, and of course, allowing people to leave, like, because what are your options? Like, no, you can't leave. But one thing that we know as entrepreneurial dentists or is that, and especially in me running, starting dental train, that's kind of still in beta and perpetuity, it seems like, but it is coming to market, is that digging in and learning the cost of turnover and the cost of training and the cost of bringing someone back up to speed. And it's just, it's so daunting. It's literally equal to whatever that person's salary is on a yearly, it's literally equal to 150% of that. And not only that from a frustration standpoint, Chris, it's the impediment of speed. Meaning you can hardly make progress when people are turning over because the car is just sitting there idling almost. You're not really moving down the road. And if you are, you're not moving with the velocity you probably could. So it's really important to have, I know this is something on recruiting, but that was the whole thesis of Dental Train is to be able to onboard people really quickly and bring them up to speed without this strain on the ecosystem having to do so. And if you lose someone, you can bring someone up to speed. Because without that, you're just kind of two steps forward, two steps back, two steps forward, two steps back. And it's frustrating as shit when you have visions of scaling your practice and visions of multiple locations and visions of growth, it's frustrating as shit.

Peter Boulden
0:34:13
Hmm, that's great.

Peter Boulden
0:34:14
Did you see the passion come out there?

Chris Tuff
0:34:16
Yeah, no, I mean, it is. And yeah, without having a turnkey onboarding is critical, right?

Peter Boulden
0:34:22
Well, without having a system, without having clear good ops, meaning that like if turnover just wrecks your practice, when someone quits, everyone just goes into a tailspin, then like that's something you need to fix because you can't be vulnerable. And because guess what? If you will know that, and you will fall prey to the terroristic vulnerabilities that come with that, right? Because you know, like, holy shit, if Katie quits, we are, you're right. And so you will fall into that. But if you can strengthen up and say like, all right, if she leaves, like we've got a great onboarding process. We've got a great training process and we've got a great retention process. You know, then it takes the vulnerability away because you've built the muscles in other places. And to a degree, it sucks to lose people. Don't get me wrong.

Chris Tuff
0:35:11
Totally. And in an environment that's so competitive right now. And I use house buying as an analogy. Sometimes when you're looking at a house, you kind of like it, right? And then you hear that there's a bid on it. It's like, honey, we got to put a bid in. We've got to put a bid in on this. And that takes me to, Pete, you've said that you're not naturally a great hirer, right? Like you will pick sometimes the wrong person. And I know me, like I'm so competitive. I just want to win, right? So when I see someone that's hard to get, I'm like, I'll do whatever is in my power. And so talk a little bit about some of the tools

Peter Boulden
0:35:50
that you suggest using to avoid those things. Yeah, so knowing Chris, that that is my weak spot. I've been taken out of that with the exception of dentists. Meaning that like, cause I hire, you know, I'm kind of like Craig, you know, I really like people in the beginning. You know, it's later, if for some reason I like everyone in the beginning, and then later I start picking it apart, like why I don't, right, which is just stupid. So, but I don't ask the right questions, and I just, I want it to work, right? I'm very optimistic about things. So I've been taken out of the process from, you know, my practice director, Vanessa, she's a great hire, and she's very strategic. So going to your question, Chris, I'm not going to ramble, is that when I suck at something, my now knee-jerk reaction is go to data, go to data, and go to science that helps you figure this out. And so as opposed to being like, I think they're going to be good because they told me they love to answer the phone. So we've been using and implementing recently the Culture Index, which we've done things all along, Chris, meaning we used to do DISC, and we used to do Colby, and we used to do all these things. And guess what? They were fun and they were a good exercise and everyone enjoys walking around there and being like, I'm a D and I'm an I or I'm a this and I'm a that. But guess what? It didn't move anything in the practice. It just meant like, we just now knew like how to talk to you and not offend you potentially, didn't do anything. But now with this exposure that Dwight Bacora has helped with is that learning the culture index, learning a lot of things, meaning that from an energy standpoint, is the job draining someone? And just getting very, I called it, we were in Austin, and we were doing a wrap up for the last Mastermind, and he was kind of showing everybody this. I was like, Dwight, this is like Moneyball for dentistry. Right, and if you haven't seen that movie, I would encourage you to do it, the Brad Pitt, where he starts using data. And he starts using, what's that Jonas kid? Jonas is the character, and he starts using him, because he's a computer quant to say, as opposed to using your gut to hire and put the right people on the field, you're using data to say, well, in these scenarios, he struck out every third pitch, blah, blah, blah. And so just using data, putting the right person on the seat of the bus. And by bus, I mean practice. And so it's finding someone that's energized because there are people who are energized by answering phones. There are some people who tell you in the interview process, yeah, I love being on votes and they hate it. And it will never be sustainable. Or someone who says like, I'm a great socializer and they're not. Or someone saying like, I'm a really good artist and craftsman and they are not. So it's all these things. And so it's really just taking the subjectivity out of meeting someone, subjectivity out of hiring someone and saying, we actually need this pro forma, this profile for the culture index for this position. We know, we have all the other ones, but we need this. Dwight actually leads almost all of his applicants have to go through it, because he has to vet and make sure it's the right person, which is just, to me, that's next level shit, right? As opposed to just like, hey, let's just find someone to answer the phones. No, let's find the right person for the right location at the right time. That's 98% accurate, by the way. And that's next level shit, in my opinion. And when you start learning that, and we are in our infancy, I will share, Chris, but it is fascinating. Fascinating, and I usually have a big bullshit meter, and I don't have one here. Like with the disc and the Colby, I was like, I don't really see how to move this. Like, what do we do with this? Okay, great, I'm dominant, great, all right, there, or whatever it is, right? Or I'm introspective, or what do you do with that? But this actually says like, hey, they may be in the wrong role in your company, or maybe they don't fit your company.

Chris Tuff
0:39:22
Or- You did that with me, by the way, and I had to take action on it. And he was like, Chris, I hate to say this, but looking at you and your team, you've got the wrong people in the wrong positions. I was like, what are you talking about, Dwight? He was like, let me just take a guess. These are some of the things that are happening, Chris. And he started explaining, I was like, oh no, I'm gonna have to fire this person, aren't I? He was like, yeah, you are. And I did.

Chris Tuff
0:39:45
And-

Peter Boulden
0:39:46
Are we, not to interrupt you. Yeah, are we getting some kind of, cause I know people are probably like, what is this, what is this source where you speak up? Are we getting some kind of deal to get like, Dwight helping and doing some, that's gonna be people's question.

Chris Tuff
0:39:57
Yes, yes.

Peter Boulden
0:39:58
Okay, so Bulletproof's gonna get a deal? Yep, yep.

Chris Tuff
0:40:00
To help, okay.

Peter Boulden
0:40:01
All right, so we will post it or ping us, obviously we don't know about it, but it will probably be through Dwight. And if you've got something, get on the Mighty Networks and ask about it if you're not already there. That's a good thing to find out how you can find more.

Chris Tuff
0:40:12
One last question, Pete. One last question. One last one. This is it. This is the grand finale. Who do you involve in your interview process? Because you hear, like, when are you involved? And then when are you not involved?

Peter Boulden
0:40:27
Well, I'm involved in associates.

Chris Tuff
0:40:29
That's it.

Peter Boulden
0:40:29
That's it.

Chris Tuff
0:40:30
And guess what?

Peter Boulden
0:40:30
I'm involved. Who's involved with hiring a hygienist, my practice director and other hygienists. Exactly. Who will protect this house, right? Meaning they will know the right questions to ask because they're the ones that are going to have to work with them, right? The assistants hire assistants. So a lot of times, and I'm not ashamed of this, like I met someone the other day. I was like, Hey, nice to meet you. How long have you been here? They had no idea. And it used to be like, oh, I should know all things. But like, I had just met her, she'd been here a couple, maybe a month, but I never met her. Never knew we hired her.

Chris Tuff
0:41:01
I love it.

Peter Boulden
0:41:01
And I used to think, Chris, that that was a negligent operator, negligent owner, but it's not. It's actually a superpower as opposed to me thinking like, I should know all things. No, I shouldn't.

Chris Tuff
0:41:12
Why?

Peter Boulden
0:41:12
I love it. Because I'm not good at that. Like, keep me away from that. All I'm gonna do is mess it up.

Peter Boulden
0:41:16
I love it. Well, awesome, Pete.

Chris Tuff
0:41:18
I think this is a good little pod here. Yeah. So much to cover, right?

Chris Tuff
0:41:22
It really is.

Chris Tuff
0:41:23
It really is.

Peter Boulden
0:41:24
I mean, I think we should do a whole another, maybe I'll get Tim on as well and talk about just, you know, turnover and the repercussions of that, because we've learned so much from that. I mean, he's growing a DSO predicated on using dental train because of the stuff we've learned and it's really helped give him a massive advantage in scale. I mean, we use it every day too in our own, but like he literally did one from start. But I think that's a cool one to talk about is, you know, the cost of turnover and then the importance of ops to make sure that you minimize that as much as possible. A lot of times people quit because they just had inadequate training. So, I know I just want-

Chris Tuff
0:42:00
There you have it, there's the next pod.

Peter Boulden
0:42:02
Well, you know, maybe it's that, maybe it's not. I know we've got some, but I think it's a good thing to discuss. Chris, I enjoyed this today because I think it speaks to the hearts of a lot of, if our mastermind is a good representation focus group, then this is hot and heavy right now on everyone's minds on how to fix. And hopefully we gave a pearl or two to implement. I know there's no magic bullet with this. If there was, everyone would be using it. But again, like I said, taking a pearl or two and twisting the knob on your process just a little bit, sometimes, sometimes, can be all you need. All right, buddy. Awesome. Over and out, pal. We'll see you later. All right, buddy. Awesome. Over and out, pal. We'll see you later.

Peter Boulden
0:42:37
See you, everyone.

Transcribed with Cockatoo